My landlord thinks I should feel sorry for her for wanting to sell the house I rent and making me move out . . .
By - Content_File_1408
Sorry all if OP no longer replies to you, they have been prevented from doing so by virtue of being abusive, unnecessarily argumentative in the face of factually correct information, and lightly suspected of trolling you at best, and operating in a different reality at worst.
However we have kept the submission open for those of you which are otherwise enjoying discussion with each other. Though we do note the number of you which are banned from r/LegalAdviceUK! Which, by the by, is a great place for legal advice, as well as r/HousingUK for tenancy/housing discussion.
Edit: For those interested in finding out more about the issues discussed:
- How s21 evictions work: https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/section_21_eviction/section_21_eviction_process
- What constitutes legal notice: https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/eviction_notices_from_private_landlords
- Landlord access: https://www.thetenantsvoice.co.uk/advice_from_us/landlord-access/
- Selling with a tenant in-situ: https://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/landlord-selling-tenanted-property/
Edit2: Op has since went on a deletion spree of their own comments, fewer now remain.
>"I'm not evicting you, I'm happy to re-house you in one of my other properties, we're just at full capacity right now"
Sounds like an eviction with extra steps.
The extra steps are her selling the house first. Once a buyer is lined up he will get his section 21 notice....
Makes no sense. I have the email as evidence. As of now, it's only with Citizens Advice on their files but by this time tomorrow, it's going to be with every single landlord, housing, tenant, legal organisation in Manchester you can think of.
Sounds like something a squirrel would say 🧐
You found my alt!
Thanks. I did last week.
Has she otherwise been a good landlord?
Some landlords are invisible until you move out or they serve section 21. Then you really learn how shitty they are.
My old landlord was lovely to us. Always contactable and helpful with the things we needed her for, which was nice because going through the letting agent was a drag.
Then we were moving out and she would tell us one thing (like saying that we can leave some bins on the back porch because of the wait until him day), and tell the letting agent another ("I didn't tell them that"), among other things.
That’s why I asked.
Of course there are many terrible landlords.
Just like there are terrible tenants.
Yet tenants can’t leave references to bad landlords.
There is rateyourlandlord.org.uk
Maybe someone should make yelp but for landlords? Not that it would help that much with the endlessly ongoing housing shortage, but it would be something.
Hit and miss.
When I first moved in, I had to fight her to get an up to date gas safety certificate on the house.
However, she has a couple of people working for her in terms of she's like an agency because she has so many houses, and whenever I've needed anything, they've come good. The house is fully furnished, and I phoned them last year and said the mattresses were old and the springs were popping out and by the next week, we had new mattresses.
I think you meant to say, 'not too shit of a landlord'.
I had a fantastic landlord, everything was brilliant. Until it came to getting our deposit back aaannnnnd oh yes you're a cunt.
Had to threaten to take one to small claims court once to get a deposit back.
Has she slithered under the low bar.
I had a genuinely great landlord once. It was his childhood home that he'd inherited and if there was a problem, he'd be around in half an hour to sort it or call the necessary trades in.
Also went above and beyond in terms of maintenance, I was buying a new TV and asked him where he wanted me to store the old one (which came with the house), he told me to send him the receipt for the new TV and he'd reimburse me.
During my stay in the UK I actually had a genuinely good landlord. Didn't raise rent arbitrarily, was happy to accommodate, didn't drop by unannounced, made sure things that required fixing got done, paid back the full deposit even though there was pet damage (cats) on the rugs.
Put it this way, the longer she waits with the section 21 the longer it will be until she can actually get an empty house. She's hoping you'll just move out before and she won't have to wait 4 months to 'get rid' of you. Amazing that landlords treat tenants like an inconvenience when they are the ones providing them with an income.
Word of advice : just move - you may be right in the eyes of the law but getting evicted illegally does happen ( happened to me ) and it fucks with your every being , so just look for something ASAP
Until the S.1 is served, I don't need to.
I have been through this with a landlord who evicted me without notice. It cost more than you might think to go through the courts; you will probably "win"; but judgements are difficult to enforce. You will end up with a lot of stress and expense.
Better resolving in an amicable way. If she has lots of properties then there will be turnover so something may come up. In the meantime look for somewhere yourself. If you don't find anywhere then nothing lost.
> Better resolving in an amicable way.
It might be easier if OP has somewhere else to move to (and will mean less chance of the landlord saying 'you must give 1-2 months notice and keep paying until it expires' and having an overlap), but if there's nowhere to move to I think it can be trickier. From what I've heard in other subreddits (the UK personal finance one is worth a go for advice), councils are more likely to refuse to find you housing if you became voluntarily homeless, with 'voluntarily' including 'not waiting for a court to order you to leave'.
That's true, and makes a lot of 'advice' here pretty awful.
If there is any chance you'll be made homeless by leaving, do not agree to leave.
If you haven't been issued an eviction notice, don't leave. (although don't ask for one, the clock starts ticking once you get it)
Make every effort to find somewhere else to live, but if you still haven't found anywhere by the date on your eviction notice, explain to your landlord, but don't leave.
For the vast majority of people it doesn't come to this, but ultimately it is a court order that will evict you.
I don't have to go through the courts.
She's illegally evicting me. There's no question about that.
Until she serves the S.21, there's no recourse for her to move me out and I can call the police if she tries.
She can still evict you even if you are in the right. It may happen while you are out. Once it has happened the police will treat it as a civil matter. In my case they were unwilling to pursue a criminal case until after the civil court had finished. It is a long and expensive process. Oh and the queue for courts nowadays is long, long, long.
Yes. When she serves notice, legally. That's a Section 21. Once that is served I'm legally obliged to move out in 4 months.
Think the comment was referencing what would happen if you were illegally evicted, ie. landlord enters and changes locks when you are out one day. At that point, you're looking at a prolonged court case to get any sort of recourse, which you may not be in a financial position to fight.
As others have suggested, you are correct that the landlord needs to serve s21 notice to evict you, and that would give you 4 months to find somewhere new (assuming LL does not try and illegally evict in the meantime). In 4 months, you will need to have found somewhere new or be prepared to go down the route of ignoring the s21 and potentially ending up in a legal dispute you'll end up paying for.
Alternatively, you could take an amicable approach, speak to the landlord - explain you need a few months to find somewhere new, build a deposit etc and potentially negotiate a lower rent for the period until you move out, which may leave you in a better position in 3 months than you would otherwise be at the end of your 4 month s21 notice period.
It may also be that in that time LL may be able to relocate you to another property as offered. You've mentioned that the LL's team has been pretty quick to resolve any issues you've had - the mattress as a good example of something some LL's would just have told you to get over, so another of their properties wouldn't seem like a terrible option.
No one's saying you need to feel sorry for your landlord but it seems like you're cutting off your nose to spite your own face. Taking the amicable route might leave you with less time, but it might put you in a more favourable position or in another similar property.
Cutting off his nose so he can be allowed to live in his home for another 4 months... Uhhh sure?
I don't know what's wrong with people commenting here in defence of his landlord... Like fuck, this man who is on the dole (universal credit is known to be an absolute joke) has to suddenly upend his life because he drew the short straw from his landlords property portfolio? That shit doesn't fly.
She needs to serve him with the correct notice to begin the eviction procedure. THEN, he can use the 4 months to try and find appropriate accommodation, which, will still be pretty hard because more and more landlords don't want anything to do with people on benefits.
I think they're suggesting that your landlord can wait until you're out (shopping, visiting friends, etc) then just change the locks.
At that point you're homeless, and a civil case will take months.
Pretty sure it'd be legal to kick the door in in that case. Or just have a locksmith come and get you in. If I got home and my key doesn't work and there's no reason I shouldn't be in the house I'd just...go back in the house
She's not illegally evicting you, are you dumb.
She's asked you to leave, and she's legally allowed to ask without a S21, she just can't force you without the S21.
Loads of tenants make agreements to move without the S21, usually through cash for keys or reduced rent whilst they look elsewhere.
You won't get a cash for keys deal if you force her to issue a S21 - because why would she pay to get you out early if she now can't get you out early anyway (because a S21 was issued).
If you're refusing to leave without the S21, yes, you can call police if she tries just moving your stuff out or changes the locks without providing you with a new key.
She could save herself the hassle and just sell the property without you leaving. You can sell property with a renter in place. It just means your landlord will change. This happens literally all the time.
Right we should all bow down to our landlord just so they can save some cash on filing some forms... OP doesn't want to move house so until the landlord does his paperwork there's nothing else to say.
Not once did I suggest we should do anything like that.
OP doesn't want to move, but he will have to regardless, since she will eventually just get the S21, and I think he knows that.
OP is simply trying to buy themselves more time by insisting on the S21, which is fine and he has every right to do so, but he is being dishonest by claiming he's being illegally evicted.
How does it work..? Wouldn't you just call the police when they show up?
Police says it’s a civil matter , you then get your shit stolen and you sue them in court but In meantime lose a lot of money for this bs situation
It's not a civil matter, though it's a very poorly publicised police matter, a lot simply don't know because we've received next to no training on the matter.
Personally I love going to these sort of calls, I despise cowboy landlords and would definitely let them know what they can and can't do.
How do you get your stuff stolen? Just don't leave until they officially evict you.
They enter , change locks , throw your stuff out - happened to me though to me bit different cuz shared jousing with landlord
If landlord lives with you then you're a lodger not a tenant, different rules.
Actually the law considers that as breaking and entering, and the police have the right to arrest the landlord a d escorts you back into the building. I've had it happen to a friend of mine.
"I need to move you out of your house into this empty house, so that I have an empty house to sell." I'm sure there's some logic in there somewhere...
Sounds like she wants to sell that property, if she has no issues with the tenant and would rehouse them elsewhere if she could.
She may not be able to remortgage it or something.
Edit: there is a lot of misinformation being given to the OP on this thread, driven by nothing apart from dislike of landlords. Even if you hate landlords, you do no favours to the OP with your comments!
So then she should send him a Section 21 notice like the law requires. You are not obliged to leave your home just because your landlord wants you to.
She’s asked him to arrange to leave, acknowledged that he would like an S21 as requested… the anger at her is a bit misplaced IMO.
Every time someone leaves a tenancy, it doesn’t need to be a huge battle.
I think ops issue is that she’s playing victim while he’s being evicted.
I feel she should issue the S21 before steaming ahead with her plans to sell the house. It's clearly causing unnecessary stress to the tenant.
She should just get on with it, I agree.
Point being though - she hasn’t done anything illegal as claimed, and half of this thread is people telling them to stop paying rent, trash the house, what an awful hateful person she is etc.
None of which is useful.
What she possibly wants to do is completely irrelevant. She wants to evict the OP. Some pie in the sky comment about another of her flats (which she doesn't have) won't give OP a place to sleep.
The actually important thing for OP to understand here, is how he can ensure he doesn’t make himself ‘intentionally homeless’, as I believe this makes it more difficult to get council help.
Agree with the misinformation, I don't really see what the massive fuss is. It's quite normal, once out of the fixed term, for the landlord to just talk to the tenant like a human and ask if they could leave by X date. That conversation isn't illegal. Personally I'd find it rude to just get a section 21 with no prior warning.
In this case, tenant says no, so now landlord will issue a section 21 when she gets round to it.
Totally agree with this, looks like an informal reach out, not a strong arm eviction
wouldn't an 'informal reach out' cease when she instructed decorators to trespass?
"i forgot" isn't an adequate excuse for breaking the law.
Yeaah... We moved to a rental flat that was advertised as long-term let and 8 months later the landlord said she just can't take the stress anymore and has to sell. So we had to let people in every other day for 5 months to our home to gawk at the place until it finally sold to someone as a Buy to Let. At the time we were planning our wedding too and the bloody agency was texting and emailing me while we were on our honeymoon to ask if they could use the keys to get in to do viewings!
10 months after the sale went through, the new landlord contacted us sobbing saying she has lost her job and needs the flat, so off we went again. Wish we'd just left when the place went on sale, would've saved us a lot of emotional stress.
I once went to view a flat and whilst waiting outside the agent phoned me and told me that it had tenants who hadn't been informed it was on the market. I was to ring the bell and pretend I was there to do an inspection!
Aside from the fact my wife was with me (the agent didn't know) so the ruse wouldn't work, there was no way I was doing that. I told the guy on the phone some things involving some choice language and hung up. Of course, 30 seconds later when my anger died down I realised I should have agreed to it, then just let the tenants know the score and left.
Why couldn't you just let the tenants know anyway?
The agent hadn't told me the number yet.
I went to view a rental property before with people living in it. They were sitting watching tv, it was really awkward.
Lol, when my landlord was wanting to sell I took over the estate agent's job and showed the couple around myself, was honest about it's flaws without trying to sabotage the sale.
Hasn't sold 9 months later because my landlord priced it at £30k above the EA's valuation (talking about a 1 bed flat!).. suprise surprise..
We had the estate agent and potential renters come round to our flat around June last year, when viewings were allowed but there still weren't many places to go to and get out of the way (it was raining too...).
It was the most socialising we'd all done for weeks and ended up having long chats with the viewers and even the estate agent herself about how crap so many London flats are....Weird times. Think everyone pleased just to have someone different to talk to at last.
If I were you I'd stop prompting her... if she doesn't serve a Section 21 notice that's her problem and you get to stay there
I really really feel you!
Our landlords are selling our house... now all of a sudden all the things they haven't fixed for over a year are getting sorted and I'm pissed.
She gave us very little notice, almost 0 communication from her. But we're now getting chased by estate agents and workmen to arrange stuff and literally giving us 0 notice of anything. Also I didn't give consent for my email and phone number to be given out.
We are lucky enough to have found something else and are moving out in two weeks time, but no she can't wait that long and must have viewings and work done now whilst we still work from home.
Can't believe how much bullshit admin I'm doing for her and she'll easily rake in over 800,000 for the house cause we're in London, and she never fixed a thing (the estate agent told us our drain issues we've complained about for two years was a health hazard).
I swear if we don't get our deposit back I will lose it.
Sorry rant over.
Our crappy landlord is selling.
Still can't be bothered to fix things we've reported. Can't believe it sold so quickly.
The flat next door to ours is a shell. Literally only the support walls, external doors, and windows remain. It’s like a big room with random lengths of walls in it. Previous owner went on an open plan binge without really thinking it through.
It sold in one day. I guess people are desperate or idiots.
You don't have to do any admin for them.
You don't have to let anyone in.
You don't even have to move out until a court orders you to.
You could make their life hell.
Yeh I know, but I've lived in rented property my entire life and I know how shitty landlords can make your life. I really need that deposit back and good references.
Just a few more weeks of this landlord and one to the next one. I have had good landlords in the past, but when they are bad urgh.
Yep. And then when the next place you rent requires a reference from your previous landlord you're screwed
Landlords and estate-agents are lazy fucks, have you ever had them actually call a previous landlord?
Yep. Or at the very least I've had to chase my landlord up because he wasn't responding to my new letting agents requests for references.
It also took him ages to refund the deposit too, so he was definitely in the lazy camp!
Put a friend down as a reference. How they gonna check?
You don’t have to facilitate their decision to sell; just refuse any viewings from estate agents
..... Your phone and email details being provided to people.... How does that fit in with GDPR?
If you're feeling particular cantankerous, I would suggest passing this query to the relevant people to answer/investigate :)
And it's an incredibly hefty fine for data breaches like that.
Know your rights.
Call Citizens Advice. Anyone.
Your landlord should be paying you to move out.
Is that a thing, landlords paying people to move out?
Well, for an easy life yes a landlord might do that if they really need to get a tenant out.
Not usual though.
Shes basically asking to avoid these channels, otherwise it's going to happen. Could take you 4 months to find somewhere else anyway.
Mate, mine rang me last year asking how we were with Covid etc.
Told her not great, my wife had quite literally just been made redundant and she went off on a self pitying spiel abnout how she needed to increase our rent but I could buy it for a ridiculous price since I knew she never maintained it and it would need £30K to fix up.
Since been fortunate enough to buy, so fuck you Sharon!
Haha, fuck off Sharon
The estate agent who manages ours called us in March last year, asked how we were, (fortunately I work remotely for a company unaffected by covid so far) and then said that the landlord wanted to put the rent up £70 a month. Then said that he wanted it to increase by £50 every year. Fortunately she's a solid person and told him that was a bad idea as if I moved out, he'd need to put at least £20k worth of repairs & maintenance into the house before he'd be able to rent it for the amount he wanted. So agreed to cap it for now. Now he'll just do the absolute minimum in repairs and reap the benefits.
But how on earth do people think the middle of a pandemic is the best time to jack someones rent up?
> But how on earth do people think the middle of a pandemic is the best time to jack someones rent up?
They don’t think you will be able to move out due to the pandemic and will instead be forced to just accept the crazy rent hike.
Probably accurate tbh.
>She said, and again I quote, "I'm not evicting you, I'm happy to re-house you in one of my other properties, we're just at full capacity right now".
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but is there any scope for you to negotiate a new contract in a different property?
It sounds like she will \*eventually\* evict you, so you're on your way out eventually, but is there scope to get something decent out of this? Maybe, for example, negotiating a contract for a different property for slightly cheaper? You'd have to make sure it is iron-clad RE: the contract (just like the "contract" in her messy divorce). But, if she's being genuine with the offer, it could actually benefit you. Someone with 52 properties should theoretically not have much problem housing you (though her comment about "full capacity" is a slight red flag).
absolutely - why not talk to the landlord about what they can do, if nothing else it might help delay the inevitable.
I wonder though why someone with 50 properties that are rented out needs to sell one, particularly one thats occupied. why would you offer to rehome someone when you could just sell the one thats empty (the one op would be rehomed to).
sounds to me like the landlord has serious money problems or wants rid of the op, either way I'd be looking elsewhere.
Definitely would sell your worse performer or your highest equity unit. Depending on your objective. Fifty stock does not mean they are all equal, some may be in fixed mortgages that have hefty early closure fees etc...
I think OP is going to end up on the front of the local paper, sitting on his roof with a banner made out of a bed sheet.
>My "earliest convenience" is go fuck yourself, this is my house.
Well, to be fair, it's not.
I am so confused at this thread. Landlord has given OP an informal heads up that they are wanting to sell their property so they will need to explore other housing options, but they are open to rehousing them in another of their properties if they can (pending availability). OP has basically replied, ‘No, you need to serve me a section 21 to make it an official legal eviction because I won’t be agreeing terms informally.’ Like ok? Both are totally allowed to do both those things. I don’t see any issue with any of that… landlord is allowed to sell their property and OP is allowed to want it done through legal eviction.
Very annoying and intrusive that landlord is sending decorators round without letting OP know, that is shitty. But OP’s also commenting they want the landlord to pay THEM to evict them. Like what? Landlords don’t owe you money because they want to sell their own property, maybe you could negotiate a payment but OP also kind of nuked that with the section 21 demand. Once OP gets the section 21 they themselves have demanded, they’re not suddenly gonna get the ‘cash for keys’ they keep going on about. And, ‘Go fuck yourself, this is my house,’ is such an aggressive immediate reaction to your landlord letting you know they want to sell their property. I am really sympathetic to the state of the housing market and people who can only rent, not buy, but OP is coming across as a right jerk as well.
I’m voting for everyone sucks here.
In this situation, there's one landlord and one edgelord. I think you can work out which is which.
Exactly, why can't people just have a chat....
You will never have your argument accepted in this sub unless you are saying landlords are the very worst humans in history
It’s not just “annoying and shitty” for the landlord to send the decorators around without notice.
It’s a crime.
I’m pretty sure it’s not a crime if OP lets them in. OP is totally entitled and legally allowed to deny them entry and if they force entry, it’s a crime. But if OP lets them in, it is annoying and shitty… but not a crime.
Legally, landlords have to give at least 24 hours notice (and ask permission) if they or anyone under them (contractors, lettings agencies) wish to enter the property.
But if you get a knock on the door and say "sure come in" then you've voided that.
What’s the crime?
Yep that statement really annoyed me!
Technically / legally it is, since a tenancy in the U.K. is technically temporary ownership, rather than a lease.
It's a bit scary that no one in this thread seems to understand that yes, despite being a tenant, it IS your house.
Er what? A tenancy is just a right to occupancy, not ownership. The owner still has to do repairs etc.
I've never seen an assured shorthold tenancy agreement which stipulates transfer of ownership. The title in the land registry is the proof of ownership and that remains with the landlord.
>My "earliest convenience" is go fuck yourself, this is my house.
Ultimately she can serve notice and evict you. That puts a fixed timeline on it. By asking you to move she's given you a heads up that it's coming to start house hunting and that she could be open to a mutually agreeable timescale. You can be amicable about it or you can make her do it the hard way, it's up to you.
It’s so easy to dislike landlords but somehow you made me feel sorry for her. You seem to be one of those annoying people who think they are cleverer than they are. If she owns 53 properties, who do you think is in control here? All you have to do is ask for an incentive to move out early, and be on your way.
Why on Earth are you reminding her to serve you an eviction notice? Just making your own life harder good grief.
>My "earliest convenience" is go fuck yourself, this is my house.
Except it isn't.
I felt sorry for you until I started reading your comments and tbh you're just coming across as a cunt.
Does OP think that every single tenancy ends with a court order to evict the resident?
I’d be more shocked if the landlord went straight for the s.21 instead of letting them know informally
A stupid one as well who keeps begging to be served notice despite the landlord prevaricating
All he had to do is say, "Okay, I understand, what about reduced rent for the 4 months while I'm waiting?"
Getting kicked out your house is difficult enough as it is so sorry about that.
But it sounds like she is trying to keep things as friendly as possible given the circumstances. Would you have preferred it if she never spoke to you but an eviction notice came through the door with no explanation?
Hes not being evicted, hes being asked to leave. If he doesn't then he will get a section 21. At the end of the day, its her house to do with as she pleases. Evict him and knock it down, or evict him and sell it to the Belgians. When does OPs tenancy agreement renew? I don't see mention of it.
If you haven't already, consider joining the Acorn tenants union
You sound like a right handful, I was initially rar at the landlord but now I'm thinking she was doing you a solid, even offering you to hopskip into another property she has (which would by all accounts will likely end up as an upgrade).
not necessarily an upgrade, but a change to rental price as agreed by both parties, and DEFINITELY a painless, easy process by which OP can find a new house almost immediately. It's a kind offer I'd take instead of demanding a section 21 and then having to look for a house myself... OP seems to going weapons full-out for nothing
> even offering you to hopskip into another property she has
She said all her other properties are occupied.
There's a potential angle here to play that might result in reduced/free rent.
Give her some sympathy, explain your own story and offer to help prep the place for sale (keep it clean etc, be ready to move out), waive your right to 24hrs notice before painters etc turn up, waive your 4 month notice period etc in exchange for either free or reduced rent whilst it's going on.
It's a crappy situation for all so why not work together to make it a smooth transition? ( and if no luck there then dig your heels in on your rights)
Those rights are all statutory rights, so it is meaningless to waive them. If the landlord has any understanding of residential lettings (and as OP says she owns 50 plus properties, so she probably does) she would never accept.
Instead, I would take her up on the offer of putting OP in one of her other properties, as she is probably being sincere. Whilst they may be full now, one would expect some turnover and a property to come up every month of so. If OP is a good tenant and pays the rent on time she will not want to lose him. Paying agents is expensive as well, they probably charge between 7-12% of the annual rent plus VAT for their service. If she can move OP into one of her other properties she can avoid the agency fees which makes a nice saving.
If I was OP I would move into one of her other properties and ask to split the saving of not paying the agent as compensation for the hassle of being moved, which she may be open to.
Already thinking about it. I'm tempted to send an email with a "cash-for-keys" settlement offer. But I'm waiting to see if she actually serves a Section 21 first. The paper trail is going to be important.
Damn, you were so close to getting it. You realized that two rational humans can make a deal. But after she serves an S21 that won't be possible. You will be legally committed to moving out so there will be ZERO incentive for her to do you any favours. You could have got cheap rent for several months but you've fucked yourself. You are seriously shooting yourself in the foot but for some reason you refuse to see it.
Try to grasp this, even if you learn nothing else from this thread: if you wait for an S21, it will be too late to make a deal.
I’m not sure if the most fascinating part of this thread is the OPs mad ramblings…
… or the fact that so many posters seem to agree with him.
The latter possibly more concerning than the former.
On /r/UK, landlord bad, tenant good. That’s all that will ever be accepted, regardless of context.
Which is really annoying because it removes all the nuance of life. The tenants below me are borderline psychotic and I've been begging their landlord to issue an S21 for almost a year. Now the police, social services and council are all involved to get red of these awful scroungers. There are shitty people on both sides of the coin.
I've started to seriously wonder if this thread is a fever dream.
Like holy shit. What is happening? It's a slow motion car crash and I can't stop looking.
My favourite part is most people don't even disagree with OP about the facts. Just the confusingly confrontational attitude
I’m genuinely astonished at the number of people who think the house is currently legally owned by the tenant, are advising the landlord cannot legally make them move out, think the landlord has a responsibility to rehouse them (!) and most bizarrely think it’s in some way illegal to ask a tenant to leave.
I have had more than my fair share of terrible landlords (and had three tenancies ended by landlords), but have never been under the illusion any of the above is the case.
The amount of factually incorrect opinions about the legal position and process is simply astounding.
But it's because people hate it the position and really don't know their rights.
A microcosm of democracy, you might say.
It doesn't matter who is correct. Just what side you're on and how much you hate the other.
Which is to say, our dominant demo _really hates_ landlords. Albeit with often good reason.
> "I was hoping for your understanding. I'm going through a messy divorce and need to sell the house to pay for legal costs".
Marry her and own half of Greater Manchester.
I am amused by your edit and I understand your frustration. Yes, your landlord sounds like they're whining and being a bit manipulative and it's shitty when they have so much influence over your life.
With that being said you will benefit much more if you try to be as unemotional about this as possible. It doesn't matter about her background, it matters about your current situation: The fact is your landlord that you're in a business arrangement with seems to be treating you respectfully and fairly and would prefer to negotiate rather than evict you. This is **vastly** better than a hostile and difficult landlord.
You absolutely have the **right** to have this happen through the proper process, but frankly you don't seem prepared (in whatever way) for it or you wouldn't be having such an intense reaction to it.
It sounds like your best chance if you are really struggling is to negotiate in a polite and friendly manner - it sounds like she can evict you and once that process begins you will almost definitely be leaving the property in that time unless you really dig your heels in, and you can expect formal communication from then on with no negotiations, and it seems unlikely she would prefer you as a tenant at her other properties or give any concessions (remember you said she was in a bad position herself, don't be a focus of her frustrations too...).
Landlords and property owners themselves usually are not bad people, it's government and policy that allows them to be in a position that you disagree with - better to be angry with that than smash your head against the wall to teach them a lesson.
She has 53 properties, this isn't her first time. Get your head around the fact you are going. Either you find somewhere and leave, since you have no long term tenancy agreement, or dig your heels in, get your s21 and leave in 4 months. But you're going.
What exactly is the OPs point here? Costing the landlord time and money, is that it? Or is it about exercising their rights?
The landlord owns 50+ properties, lost time and money aren't really going to be a major inconvenience...
Excercising rights, sure, sounds good. Is that it? Is that supposed to be some sort of major victory in Reddit? 😂
It's not your house it's hers, she can do with it what she likes, as long as it's legal. It's no more your property than her car, she's just given you permission to 'drive it' it for a fee, as long as you don't use it recklessly. She wants it back now and whilst being sloppy and incompetent, she seems to be trying to be nice and lessen the blow. She's also given a reason as to why she wants to sell it, something she didn't have to do, and actually doesn't need a reason at all. Similarly, your personal circumstances are neither her fault or her problem. If you remain cordial she may still offer you another one of her properties when one eventually becomes available. If you're an arse she wont, and might not give you a decent reference to the next landlord
Renting property is her business, it's not her hobby and it's not her job to provide social housing to those down on their luck. That's the job of the government and local councils.
I know it's a bummer and you're angry, but as long as she goes through the legal process, you're moving out. You've got at least four months to find somewhere good to live, which is more than most in the past. My partner had a month, was told the property was going to be sold, and then it was just let again at a hugely increased rent. My partner's daughter had to move schools in the middle of exams. We still haven't seen the deposit back. Despite what you think, your landlord seems generous compared to many.
Finally, a sane and level headed response.
>My "earliest convenience" is go fuck yourself, this is my house.
Tells me all I need to now about OP and any sympathy I had for them.
The landlord is asking to come to a mutual agreement before slamming you with a section 21. This is a good thing. It would be worse of they sent a section 21 without trying to come to a mutual agreement.
I really don't understand confrontation here.
It's like your boss giving you a heads up that redundancies are coming, so start looking.
>My "earliest convenience" is go fuck yourself, this is my house.
It's not your house. You own no part of it, you pay to live there
Landlord offers to give you a choice of when to leave but instead you try to force her into a section 21 decision which puts a hard limit on the time you have left. That is cutting your nose off to spite your face.
She has offered to find you a place in another house which must assuredly be a smoother transition than upping sticks to a new place/new landlord.
Yes she needs to issue you a S21 if you don't agree to leave amicably, and you could make life difficult for her and prolonged the process potentially.. However is this really in your best interest? Ultimately you will have to leave and if it where me I would try and do this in a way that would be financially beneficial to me, as others had said ask her if she would buy you out of the contract. I assume at some point you will need a reference from her so digging your heals in and being difficult for the sake of prolonging the process for maybe another month or two is probably not going to do you any favours.
I had some sympathy for the OP until I read his replies. He just sounds like one of those freeman on the land types at this point. Rather than trying to be amicable he just wants to be a dick because “muh rights”.
I will laugh my ass off if he gets home to find the locks changed.
This is crappy butttttttttt "this is my house" is not true. You took on no risk whereas she has money invested.
It's not your house though. I'm entitled to the grand sum of £13.28 a month on benefits, I've never been eligible for furlough or any government assistance. I live in a shed on a field which I brought, because I'd rather live in a shed (albeit a nice one with power and water) that I own than rent a house.
sounds like the only way to afford a home you own these days, but even buying land is tough near any cities, so you're limiting the jobs you can get to doing it this way
No, people are just limiting themselves by having the mindset that you need to be near a city to get a job. There are literally hundreds of courses in everything from tree surgery to livestock management, some of which you can even take for free or get a partial grant for. I think most people refuse to countenance getting a job which doesn't involve coming home covered in cow shit or sawdust at the end of the day.
>this is my house.
Well... it’s not really.
By renting a house you have exclusive use of that house, as a part of the lease that you pay for.
That doesn't make it your house tho, you're just enjoying the exclusive use of it for the duration of the lease...
Possession and ownership of something are distinct legal concepts.
In their defense, they didn't say they "own it", they said it's "my house" which can be perceived as true. It's his house until a time that it isn't.
When he's out with friends, he probably says "I'm going home now" and returns to the aforementioned residence. He doesn't say, "I'm going back to the building of which I have exclusive use of for the duration of my lease". So colloquially and as most people understand, it's his house until the moment he is evicted, or stops renting.
Usually i'd agree with you, but if you read their other comments here, it appears like this person has a seriously warped view on property rights...
Actually they did say they owned it but since have deleted those comments.
I genuinely hope that this is a troll and (other than those that lead to people being trolls,) OP is doing fine mentally. Because if this is not a troll, I’m worried for their mental wellbeing.
Edit: part of his deleted comments which was quoted by another Redditor replying to them: https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/nufbqq/comment/h0yvdqw
Exclusive use of the house doesn't mean you own it
Tennant rents house, landlord says "sorry but I can't afford to rent this house anymore, can you please start looking for other accommodation". Tenant gives reasonable landlord the middle finger and decides to force an eviction.
Did the tenant think they would live there indefinitely? Fucking joker, probably see them on "Can't pay, We'll Take it away" in a few weeks
I don't understand why everyone is so butthurt about this.
The choice is to either voluntarily arrange a leaving date with the landlord, or be dragged from the property kicking and screaming by the legal process. The landlord is trying to make it easier for everyone involved by avoiding the long and inefficient eviction process, but OP is being an obstinate prick. Sure, he's legally allowed to be an obstinate prick, but that doesn't mean that he *should be* - you're legally allowed to be rude to retail staff too, but it's just not a very nice thing to do.
Also, some of the responses here are absolutely disgusting. If you are recommending trashing the house or withholding rent because the landlord can't do anything about it then **you** are the reason why other renters find it so difficult to get housing.
Proud of being a benefit scrounger? Or was that tongue in cheek and I completely missed it.
Probably best to work together on finding a mutually beneficial solution here. It serves absolutely nobody to get into a legal battle over this and from your initial post your landlord seems reasonable as you could easily have turned the contractors away.
I think you’re being a bit unfair here.
She needs to sell the house. She’s given you notice to leave. You have refused.
What did you really expect? You’re dragging her into possible legal action.
Why do you want her to go down the section 21 route - so you can be deemed as having been made homeless and eligible for council housing? You may be eligible anyway, as you haven’t chosen to leave.
I appreciate its rather difficult for you to secure housing when on benefits - but that’s not your landlords fault. Start looking for some alternatives, give a notice period, and avoid ending up in court.
Edit: [For all of those claiming there is no way to end a tenancy without a S21, read here](https://www.gov.uk/private-renting-tenancy-agreements/your-landlord-wants-to-end-your-tenancy)
Edit 2: OP now mentions they are in a periodic tenancy. This indeed means the landlord can end the tenancy by mutual agreement with the tenant at any time - they are well within their means to ask to do so.
She hasn’t given notice to leave, she’s suggested OP leave. It’s like an employer suggesting you quit rather than fire you and pay severance.
If their landlord has sent them a letter advising they want to take control of the property and wants to move out, that sounds very much like giving notice.
If your landlord offers you anything but the minimum term, they’re probably just being kind in not rushing you (ie giving them longer to find something else) - quite common when selling, as people often don’t want to buy with a sitting tenant.
The landlords only cock up here is in accessing the property without giving him notice.
It’s a bugger the private rental market operates like this, but it’s entirely legal.
OP has 4 months to leave from the date of a Section 21, that is the end of story. That clock doesn't start until the Section 21 is delivered, and nothing the landlady can legally do can (or will) change that.
> sent them a letter advising they want to take control of the property
That's what a section 21 is, which they havn't recieved yet.
Obviously the landlord want's to informally agree a closer date but legally they have no option other than giving that section 21 notice and it needs to be official, not just a random letter.
Quite a bad comparison as OP is set to gain absolutely nothing no matter which way he chooses to leave.
Do you think every single tenancy in this country ends with people being evicted?
Fuck that. Money is tight everywhere. She would, presumably, enforce the notice in the contract in the good times. These people arent your friends, especially if youve got a limited time to prepare for the unexpected costs of having to move.
She hasn't. A letter isn't notice to leave. A letter is a letter.
Notice of eviction is a legal procedure.
The only way to leave a property isn’t via a section 21 eviction.
The landlord can end the arrangement - much like you can. ‘I will no longer be renting this house to you, are you okay with leaving by X date’.
So long as that is contractually allowed, and you agree, she’s done nothing wrong.
If you think she hasn’t been detailed enough as to when she would like you to leave, ask her for further details (explaining that the original letter wasn’t clear). You can also request a section 21 again.
Your landlord ending a contract because they are selling the house, isn’t ‘illegally evicting you’.
> The landlord can just end the arrangement - much like you can. ‘I will no longer be renting this house to you’.
That's entirely wrong. There's no legal route for a landlord to do this.
It’s entirely legal for a landlord to ask you to leave, and see what your terms are.
A section 21 isn’t the only way of regaining possession of her house - the purpose of it is usually to ensure the process happens within a set time frame (and without needing to supply a reason).
If you want a four month notice period, tell her you need a four month notice period.
The landlord took the risk of this happening by becoming a landlord, they can be as awkward as they like within their rights.
Fuck that, she'd exploit every little loophole and rule to scam as much money out of him as possible with deposits etc. Landlords arent your friends, they're commodifying one of the absolute essential parts of life while generally supplying the lowest quality shit they can. The law is pretty clear on it, 4 months and proper eviction procedure.
Talk to Shelter, they're pretty good with this sort of thing.
Gutted I missed some of OP’s replies this morning but they sound like a right dingbat, what a crappy consumer
Landlord says they're selling the house. Tells you they can sort out one of their other houses for you. Instead of being a twat why not just start preparing to move out? Sounds like you want to get into it with your landlord. Stop being a victim.
She can sell it to you at a price discounted by all the equity you've already put into the house for her. Or I'd be doing exactly what you are. No doubt there'll be a lot of sympathy here for someone who owns 53 properties but I'd definitely be refusing decorators with no notice. Is she planning on having multiple people a day (presumably being in and around Manchester there might well be people coming from Delta variant hotspots to see it) in your house for viewings during a pandemic?
Sob stories about needing money for divorce is ludicrous. Should have kept an emergency fund like any responsible adult with 53 properties would have. It's not your job to bail her out of her own financial cock-up
> No doubt there'll be a lot of sympathy here for someone who owns 53 properties
It's possible she's so overlevereged she doesn't own even a single one.
Wouldn't surprise me. If it all gets taken off her in the divorce she might have to get a job and make her income herself instead of relying on handouts from people who actually get off their ass and go to work.
Having a mortgage just means you owe money. The banks don't own your property while you're paying it off.
Sorry, I should have been more specific.
It's possible that not one of her properties has LTV of 0%.
If you can come out of this as well as possible either by heeding her pleas or by going through legal channels, do what ever is best for you.
But I absolutely can't believe people are siding with the landlord in this situation. I don't hate landlords, but if people on a minimum wage are expected to have a rainy day fund, some cunt with 53 houses, should have a bloody rainy day fund. OP shouldn't suffer because their landlord is not fiscally responsible.
The landlord isn’t really doing anything out of the ordinary here. They want to sell the house and have informally asked the tenant to leave (start looking for other places)
She hasn’t exactly marched down and dragged them out of the house have they?
I’m pretty sure if OP had just said I’ll begin searching for a new place, give me at least enough time to sort that it would have been plain sailing?
“Benefit scrounger and proud of it”- yep, there goes my sympathy.
it's because anyone needing benefits is called a scrounger by the sun/mail
the guy's worked and payed income tx, which is exactly the reason unemployment benefits exists
Had this happen to us.
Landlord let us the flat (his home) to go travelling. No other properties to live in in case it went tits up.
He couldn't go and tried to serve an eviction notice with the incorrect notice.
I obviously went back and said if you need to be in, that's fine, but we need additional notice because of the COVID-19 change. Apologised and said he didn't want it to get legal.
YOU SERVED US AN EVICTION NOTICE.
Anyway, after a load of chew on when we actually *had* to leave, we chose to move out earlier and had rent knocked off and just moved on.
Use it to your advantage but absolutely do not agree to moving out earlier than your notice period. It's difficult to find another place within a short space, give yourself flexibility and say if you can you will move out earlier but need the full notice period to have a safety net.
I know you've muted, but just want to give my support for you fighting for your rights.
Landlords should know their responsibilities when choosing to provide housing for other human beings. They have legal obligations and renters should not be under and duress to forgo these because of the landlord's personal circumstances. This is why we have laws - to take the subjective out of the situation.
What a horrible self centered individual no wonder sometimes divorcing her. I hope you manage to fight back.
I'm the same boat. I'm fucked cos my credit score is shit. I need to find a flat within two months. Life hey
Unfortunate situation….. but you are a tenant and they need you to leave - the reason for that is irrelevant.
Have a discussion and arrange an amicable agreement for you to leave.
Don’t go down the route you seem to be …… it’s not “your house” …..it’s theirs and they no longer wish to let it.
Conflict will get you nowhere and if you play this right you can actually do ok financially out of it - or be as difficult as possible and make it messy…… either way you’ll be out of that house in a few months.
Don’t look for a fight, instead look for how you best come out of this.
If they really do have 53 properties then you’ll not be the first person they will have had to remove - it’s not unknown for some landlords to use other methods to encourage you to leave……
Speak to them …. do a deal and get a small payoff.
I feel sorry for you OP. However, I don't think you are looking at this objectively. It's understandable that you respond to the situation emotionally, it must feel awful to have to leave what feels like your home. But future-you won't benefit from an emotive response. Choosing to take a hostile approach with the LL will leave you with no good will for potential alternative solutions that could help make your next step easier. She is in the greater position of power ultimately so keeping her sweet (however much of a shit you may think her) is important to your future well-being. For example, I think you're damaging your shot at a good reference which is short sighted (many good landlords will require this). Additionally the legal system in the UK is so shit, I've been on the right side of it several times with good legal advice/representation and the long short is that after a lot of time and emotional energy the justice system leaves you short changed at best, or with total and soul destroying injustice at worst. Rule of law is a bit of a joke in the UK, so please reconsider how much you lean on that...just because something is law does not mean that's how things actually work irl. They should, but that's just not the real world. Good luck to you with your next home. I really hope you find a great place and that you have a happier future.
> now am a fully-fledged benefit scrounger (and proud of it).
Right... Why are you proud to be on benefits?
53 Properties? Poor her /s Messy divorce and somehow this is partly your fault? Sounds more like she got in over her head.. Tell her to stick it. Make sure you have pictures of the workmen entering and talk to a solicitor. She can't do anything without serving notice. Talk to the newspapers.
Let me put it this way. If the shoe was on the other foot would she really care about you? Clearly not. Don't give her the benefit of the doubt. She's running a business, you are losing your home.
My favourite thing about landlords is that they seem to love making their problems into their tenants problems.
Call citizens advice and get a clearer picture of your rights